Legislature(1999 - 2000)
03/31/1999 05:35 PM House WTR
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON WORLD TRADE
AND STATE/FEDERAL RELATIONS
March 31, 1999
5:35 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Ramona Barnes, Chair
Representative Gail Phillips
Representative Joe Green
Representative Ethan Berkowitz
Representative Reggie Joule
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative John Cowdery, Vice Chair
Representative Beverly Masek
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
* HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 26
Relating to establishing maritime boundaries with Canada.
- MOVED CSHJR 26(WTR) OUT OF COMMITTEE
* HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 27
Relating to the maritime boundary between Alaska and the former
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
- MOVED CSHJR 27(WTR) OUT OF COMMITTEE
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HJR 26
SHORT TITLE: ALASKA MARITIME BOUNDARY WITH CANADA
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) COGHILL
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
3/10/99 410 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
3/10/99 410 (H) WTR, STATE AFFAIRS
3/30/99 Text (H) WTR AT 5:30 PM CAPITOL 124
POSTPONED TO 3/31/99
3/31/99 Text (H) WTR AT 5:30 PM CAPITOL 124
BILL: HJR 27
SHORT TITLE: ALASKA/RUSSIA MARITIME BOUNDARY
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) COGHILL
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
3/10/99 410 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
3/10/99 410 (H) WTR, STATE AFFAIRS
3/30/99 Text (H) WTR AT 5:30 PM CAPITOL 124
POSTPONED TO 3/31/99
3/31/99 Text (H) WTR AT 5:30 PM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
VINCE O'SHEA, Captain
United States Coast Guard
P.O. Box 25517
Juneau, Alaska 99802
Telephone: (907) 463-2226
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HJR 26.
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN COGHILL, JR.
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 416
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-3258
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as sponsor of HJR 26 and HJR 27.
MARK SEIDENBERG, Vice-Chairman
State Department Watch
P.O. Box 7981
Northridge, California 91327
Telephone: (818) 363-6210
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HJR 26 and HJR 27.
CARL OLSON, Chairman
State Department Watch
P.O. Box 65398
Washington, D.C. 20035
Telephone: (703) 276-3330
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HJR 26 and HJR 27.
RYNNIEVA MOSS, Legislative Assistant
to Representative John Coghill, Jr.
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 416
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-4530
POSITION STATEMENT: Offered technical amendment to HJR 27 on
behalf of sponsor.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 99-08, SIDE A
Number 0001
CHAIR RAMONA BARNES called the House Special Committee on World
Trade and State/Federal Relations meeting to order at 5:35 p.m.
Members present at the call to order were Representatives Barnes,
Phillips, Green and Berkowitz; Representative Joule joined the
meeting soon after the call to order. Representative Cowdery and
Masek were not present.
HJR 26 - ALASKA MARITIME BOUNDARY WITH CANADA
[Contains discussion of HJR 27]
Number 0154
CHAIR BARNES announced that the first order of business would be
House Joint Resolution No. 26, relating to establishing maritime
boundaries with Canada. She invited Captain O'Shea from the U.S.
Coast Guard to come forward and testify first, as he had time
constraints.
VINCE O'SHEA, Captain, United States Coast Guard, reminded the
committee that he had appeared last year; there was a transcript
from that meeting that he had reviewed, on his way over, which
provided a good summary on the Coast Guard's perspective. He
pointed out that since he gave that testimony, the Canadian
government had closed the disputed area in Dixon Entrance last
summer (1998) to commercial salmon fishing, due to the poor returns
and the problems with their salmon stocks. He believes it was on
July 2, 1998, that the state of Alaska reciprocated by closing
commercial fishing to Alaskan fisherman in the disputed area, as
well.
MR. O'SHEA referred to a map and pointed out the difference between
the U.S. claim - the equidistant line - and the "AB" line that the
Canadians claim as the maritime boundary. He noted that as a
result of that closure, it was a very quiet summer in Dixon
Entrance for the U.S. Coast Guard, although they had two boats
there, primarily for search-and-rescue for the U.S. gillnet fleet
and to ensure there were no problems for charter boat operators who
occasionally go there.
Number 0380
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS referred to recent boardings of commercial
vessels in Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve, by National Park
Service personnel. She said she hopes that at no time would that
argument [for closures to commercial fishing] be extended into this
area.
Number 0498
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN COGHILL, JR., Alaska State Legislature,
sponsor, asked the committee to consider both HJR 26 and HJR 27.
Noting that the Senate had not passed the previous resolutions, he
said it is important to continue to assert this. Once again, on
disputed territory, whether on the Russian front or the Canadian
front, there needs to be some action to settle for good the
peacekeeping relationships. It is important for Alaskans to be at
the negotiating table, and for there to be a disclosure to Alaskans
on what the process is. These two resolutions are intended to
bring these issues out.
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL offered two technical amendments that he
suggested may make the language better.
Number 0621
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ made a motion to adopt Amendment 1, which
read:
Page 2, line 17 after the words "the federal government to":
Delete: initiate
Insert: pursue
CHAIR BARNES asked whether there was any objection. There being
none, Amendment 1 was adopted.
Number 0646
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN made a motion to adopt Amendment 2, which
read:
Page 2, line 24, after the word "public":
Delete: "input and hearings during the negotiating
process; and"
Insert: disclosure and hearings after the negotiating
process and prior to ratification; and
CHAIR BARNES asked whether there was any objection. There being
none, Amendment 2 was adopted.
Number 0680
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ referred to page 2 of HJR 26, lines 21 and
22, which talks about the right of Alaska to approve provisions.
He said his reading of the U.S. Constitution suggests that Alaska
doesn't have that right in an international agreement.
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL said he might agree, except that it has to
do with sovereign boundaries within the state of Alaska. He
believes under Article X of the [U.S.] Constitution, Alaska is well
within its bounds to request presence at the table, even though
the state won't be negotiating national treaties. He pointed out
that there is a lot of fishing and oil development from which
Alaska will derive a direct benefit.
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ clarified that what is being discussed is
the right to approve, and Alaska doesn't have the right to approve
anything in an international agreement, although it does have the
right to be at the table. He doesn't want to delude the public
into thinking that something that goes through Congress must be
approved by the legislature.
Number 0800
CHAIR BARNES said Alaska is being discussed as a sovereign state,
and any changes to the state's boundaries, under the Alaska
Statehood Act and the statehood compact, need to be approved by
Alaskans. She asked Mr. Coghill if that is what he is trying to
say.
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL said that is part of it. However, the main
reason for the language is that if Alaska is going to sit at the
table, they are asking for the right to have a say, rather than
just to observe.
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ reiterated that the state does not have
that right, but if there is legal authority that suggests that they
do, he would like to see it. He restated that it is part of the
federal constitution.
Number 0912
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN wondered if the concern would be satisfied if
on page 2 of HJR 26, line 22, the committee substitutes "testify
on" for "approve."
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS suggested making it even stronger by
substituting, "to be included at the table"; she acknowledged that
it already says, "on the negotiating team."
Number 0946
MARK SEIDENBERG, Vice-Chairman, State Department Watch, testified
via teleconference from Seattle, Washington. He explained that
when the United States entered into negotiations with Great Britain
on the Webster-Ashburton Treaty in 1842, to set the state boundary
for Maine, commissioners were appointed by Massachusetts and Maine
to sit at the table; the United States informed Great Britain that
they had to have the approval of both Massachusetts and Maine in
order for the treaty to go through, which was a constitutional
requirement. That is one of many examples where commissioners have
been appointed, and it is one of the main precedents for not taking
territory from a state without the consent of the state.
MR. SEIDENBERG told members that the problem here is that general
government tends to ignore Alaska, a sovereign state since 1959,
and this is an issue of sovereignty. Noting that they are talking
about Canada here, he pointed out that Great Britain determined the
boundaries with Canada until the late 1930s, when Canada got
authority to discuss boundary issues with the United States.
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ requested that Mr. Seidenberg forward
those precedents to him.
Number 1060
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ made a motion to move HJR 26, as amended,
from the committee with individual recommendations and the attached
fiscal note(s). There being no objection, CSHJR 26(WTR) moved out
of the House Special Committee on World Trade and State/Federal
Relations.
HJR 27 - ALASKA/RUSSIA MARITIME BOUNDARY
[Contains discussion of HJR 26]
Number 1092
CHAIR BARNES announced that the next order of business would be
House Joint Resolution No. 27, relating to the maritime boundary
between Alaska and the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
She asked that Mr. Olson and Mr. Seidenberg share their expertise
on information pertinent to HJR 27, rather than having
Representative Coghill, sponsor, give opening comments.
Number 1168
CARL OLSON, Chairman, State Department Watch, testified via
teleconference from California. He emphasized that negotiations of
a maritime boundary between the United States and Russia impinge
upon Alaska in many different areas. He said these negotiations
are important to Alaska with respect to sovereignty, boundaries,
and its own property. He related that the United States Department
of State is responsible for negotiating these kinds of executive
agreements. It is, at this point, only an executive agreement, not
a treaty, as it has never been ratified by the Russian side. It
can easily be modified, rescinded, or amended, for example.
MR. OLSON explained that approximately a year and a half ago, the
Russians were discontent with "how much they already got out of the
State Department, and they'd been demanding to get additional
seabed rights - I think it's about 40,000 (indisc.--simult.
speech). He indicated that the Russians now would like the
maritime boundary to be moved closer to Alaska in order to obtain
an additional 300 million pounds of fish per year from the Bering
Sea. He said unfortunately the State Department is very
accommodating about having discussions over this kind of
relinquishment, which is being conducted by Thomas Pickering, Under
Secretary for Political Affairs.
MR. OLSON told members, "You can't take away territory from a state
without the consent of the state." He said he doubts that in
Alaska there would have to be input, participation or hearings on
this issue, let alone hearing from the rest of the American public,
which is very much impacted by it. The resolution is another
impetus to get this out in the open and get the rights of Alaskans
and the American public initiated in here. He believes this issue
is therefore even more critical than it was a year before.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS, acting as chair, thanked Mr. Olson for his
comments and asked if members had any additional questions.
Number 1319
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ noted Mr. Olson's article in Orbis,
contained in committee packets, then said he has questions about
the strength of American assertions of sovereignty in the [Russian]
Arctic. He said as he understands it, discovery must be followed
by effective occupation. He stated, "I don't know what sort of
effective occupation we've exerted over some of these islands in
recent years, or continuing assertions of sovereignty."
Number 1401
MARK SEIDENBERG, Vice-Chairman, State Department Watch, testified
again via teleconference from Seattle, Washington. He explained:
Basically, you have to look at the Organic Act of 1884. The
Organic Act of 1884 includes two forms of territory, one which
was included in the 1867 Convention of Washington, which was
Russia's (indisc.) to the United States, which is this little
area in what's main Alaska, and some of the islands - not all
of them. And then the other territory that was included in
the 1994 Organic Act was that territory known as Alaska.
The practice was that during the Treasury Department phase for
administrating Alaska, from 1877 to 1884, they would put in
... their files everything that was added to Alaska. And
those were transferred to the Interior Department in 1884,
pursuant to the ... 1884 Organic Act. Wrangell Islands, which
was the largest of the group, for an example, ... was
"American discoveried" - the Russians never knew about it.
Then, in 1881, Calvin Hooper (ph), who was the de facto
governor of Alaska, went there and annexed it. Then, in
complying with the requirements at that time, occupation was
considered effective, because they included it in Alaska, and
then the ... U.S. government started issuing publications,
starting from before the turn of the century, and then as late
as 1977, on ... U.S. Department of Interior documents,
including within the state.
MR. SEIDENBERG offered to go into a longer history, about the U.S.
Navy's survey of it in the 1930s. He also offered to send
Representative Berkowitz a copy of a journal article he wrote for
"Muskox" (ph) at the University of Saskatchewan on the subject.
Number 1538
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if there were any year-round residents
on the islands being discussed.
MR. SEIDENBERG responded that Wrangell Island has year-round
residents, but all the other islands are deserted.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS asked how many people reside on Wrangell
Island.
MR. SEIDENBERG estimated from his last visit to Wrangell Island, in
1995, that 150 people resided there, although that might have
changed. At that time, Russia maintained approximately 18 troops
there, including 17 enlisted troops and one lieutenant, although
they had been talking about moving the military off the island
altogether.
RYNNIEVA MOSS, Legislative Assistant to Representative John
Coghill, Jr., Alaska State Legislature, informed members that
Representative Coghill would like to make a technical amendment to
HJR 27, changing the spelling of "Wrangel Island" to "Wrangell
Island", as he had received information that the latter spelling is
preferred.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN made a motion to adopt the technical
amendment.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS asked if there was any objection to the
amendment, which would change the spelling throughout HJR 27.
There being no objection, she stated that a committee substitute
would be ordered for HJR 27. She asked whether there were further
questions or testimony.
Number 1647
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN made a motion to move HJR 27 [as amended] from
committee with individual recommendations.
Number 1662
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ objected for a brief discussion. He
pointed out that the tone of HJR 26 is more statesmanlike than that
of HJR 27, which seems to have an angry tone. He recommended that
HJR 27 be given a more diplomatic tone in keeping with the
respectful relationship with the federal government.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN concurred.
MS. MOSS asked Representative Berkowitz to bring any suggestions to
the sponsor's office.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS asked whether there was any objection to
moving the resolution from the committee.
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE informed Mr. Seidenberg that he looked forward
to receiving the information from him.
MR. SEIDENBERG specified that he would be glad to send the
information on the oral histories of the Eskimo residents of
Wrangell Island.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS thanked participants for their time. She
then noted that CSHJR 27(WTR) was moved from the House Special
Committee on World Trade and State/Federal Relations without any
objection.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 1788
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS adjourned the House Special Committee on
World Trade and State/Federal Relations meeting at 5:59 p.m.
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